Together, Leonardo and I discuss intention, manifesting, the mysterious power of the mind and consciousness, and the potentially life-enriching acausal qualities of synchronicity.
I welcome your comments on everything Leonardo has to say!
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Transcript of The Possibility Podcast with Mel Schwartz #094
MEL: Hello everybody and welcome to The Possibility Podcast. I’m your host, Mel Schwartz. I practice psychotherapy, marriage counseling, and I am the author of the book, The Possibility Principle, the companion to this podcast. I hope to be your thought provocateur and I’ll be introducing you to new ways of thinking and a new game plan for life.
About a month ago, I had a fascinating interview with Mr. Leonardo Moran. It was a compelling and exciting discussion and at the end of our meeting, to my utter dismay and laughing at my own ineptness, I realized I never hit the record button. So I had to invite him back on, but I also realized that we had been talking a lot about synchronicity and perhaps it wasn’t an error. Perhaps it was synchronicity at play. We’ll explore that.
But let me tell you a bit about Leonardo. He was born in Lima, Peru. He studied engineering and in doing so was introduced to the field of quantum physics, which caused him to question, of course, the nature of reality. And in his quest for answers, he delved into a lot of literature, including books on the works of and philosophers and authors such as Alan Watts, Neville Goddard, Jacobo Grinberg and Bruce Lipton, whose name has been coming up a lot, one of the pioneers in the field of epigenetics.
For a number of years, Leonardo held the position of technology director at an institute where his primary objective is to incorporate technology into the realm of education. He loves to talk about quantum physics and how it has influenced the shift in his thinking from classical thought to quantum thought and how our inner dialogues with ourselves shape and materialize the world we inhabit.
So welcome to The Possibility Podcast, Leonardo.
LEONARDO: Thank you very much, Mel. I’m so excited to be here and just enjoy our conversations, you know, because I think it’s just like a big flow, common knowledge and interest in how our mind processes this reality. And you know, every day that passes by, I’m more convinced that we are capable of influencing with our thoughts, the reality, like, and I see it in a day by day cases. And when I speak to people, when I have relationships with people, how those synchronicities that you were talking about just show up. And many times, many things just get projected in our reality and it comes up to us to pay attention to those. And if we do, then we can see a shift in what we think wasn’t possible or was possible.
MEL: So as you were saying that about our thoughts and how they inform and shape the reality, I was thinking about these divides that we make, Leonardo, between inner and outer. And my belief is that we construct all of these divisions. So we have this term inner, inner reality. My thoughts, of course, inform who I am, how I feel about myself, how I perceive others. My thoughts falsely, literally inform me of objective truths. We construct these divides between what we call inner reality and outer reality. The words are part and parcel of the construct of a mind. So although I may say inner reality and outer reality, aren’t they really ultimately all the same?
So my thoughts inform and trick me in that they’re teaching me the truth. That’s what we call literal thought or what David Bohm called literal thought. Participatory thinking is I’m having a thought which is telling me such and such. So that informs my inner mindscape. But there is no division in my thought, Leonardo, because the outer landscape is inseparable from my inner landscape. Do you see it that way?
LEONARDO: I would say that we drag a lot of teachings and we drag a lot of paradigms and dogmas. I think they influence so much our thoughts. They put them in boxes. And sometimes those thoughts are so solid that it’s very difficult for us, even when you start learning new processes of thinking, to escape from that blockage. I think that I’ve developed an advanced thought process. And many times I wake up and I wake up with that anchor of 20 years, 30 years of some type of thinking, of me believing in what reality is. But then it’s up to me to kind of like shake it a little bit and say, like, oh, you know what? No, let’s get rid of these labels. Let’s get rid of these anchors. And that’s when I can shift into a different reality and a different way of seeing reality. I think that’s the issue. There’s many people that never even get to that thought process. They just accept what things are as what they were told.
MEL: So that is consensual reality. What the majority of people agree reality is, and there’s a conformity that chokes us. It chokes our intelligence and our innate wisdom conformity. So that you’re talking about the societal limitations. They teach us a certain way of thinking and seeing reality. So as I know, you appreciate there are many ways of thinking. And the first you said to most people, they’re perplexed. What do you mean there are many ways of thinking? So in Western culture, dating back perhaps to Aristotle, we were taught the paradigm of either or thinking, reality based duality, which is good, bad. And out of that came what I call either or thinking. So when I’m asked an either or question, it would be, well, do you think this is good or do you think it’s bad? That’s an either or question. So it takes reality and it compartmentalizes it into two separate compartments. And then we’re given a choice, choose door A or door B. So I trained my mind to resist either or thinking. And I’m kind of fond of saying either and or, either and slash or, because I try to think in as whole a picture as I can. So my retraining of mind is to do all I can to avoid reducing and creating compartments to try to see in the biggest picture. And then when I do, I can then reduce it. I can analyze when I choose to as not as my default mode, but I select to analyze after I’ve seen the bigger. And I think the way we’re trained is otherwise. You’re trained to slice and dice and analyze and look in cause and effect. Do you see that differently?
LEONARDO: I see it the same way from the point like Newton, like Newtonian physics, where you get the formula and that’s the answer. It’s just like so straight. Newton was used to subdividing things and making it so mechanical that you’re constrained to a box. That’s it. There’s nothing else. I think when you are able to see it from a quantum perspective where there’s infinite possibilities and infinite potentials, you’re able to see even like the superposition of either or, or at the same time, the same thing, you know, both states. I think that kind of like liberates you and gives you more options in this world.
MEL: For the benefit of our listeners, when you’re talking about superposition, in quantum physics, superposition speaks to a condition of infinite possibility where the actual concrete reality hasn’t yet manifested. It’s in an infinite position, meaning it’s above a material reality. It’s superimposed, waiting to happen. So as you and I have discussed, for me, superposition comes from being able to suspend the space between my thoughts. When I can access the space between my thoughts, I feel in the state of superposition. I’m not reacting. I’m not surrendering to all thought. I’m quieting myself. And in that state of superposition, in a nanosecond between the thoughts, pure possibility exists. Can you speak to your work, your interest, your passion around synchronicity and how that may access the state of superposition?
LEONARDO: I think that I’m very open-minded, you know, and when I talk about, you know, the process of manifesting something that you want and you are in that open state that everything is possible, because many times people focus on the infinite possibilities of something that’s not going to happen. And they look at all the problems that can happen, right? I stop myself there. And if I have any questions on that, I will say, you know what, if I’m seeing that there might be problems showing up, I’m going to write them and I’m going to find a solution for all these problems. And then from there, I’m going to focus on the infinite possibilities that are also possible, but focus on those. So when I’m in that state of already saying anything is possible, and I’m in this flow, I’m aware of my environment. Because I’ve seen in my life, when I’m in that state, in that flow, things begin to happen, things begin to project, things begin to synchronize, you know, I see a number, I see an ad, I see somebody shows up, somebody calls me, you know, and I pay a lot of attention of those details, you know, it’s kind of like, if you’re going to the store, and you were looking for a product, and all of a sudden you see that the Coca Cola is in the beer, and you say, why is this Cola in the beer? And you say, you could just let it pass by.
But because you were so in that process of looking for something, if you take time and ask the manager and say, why is this product in this other place, he will come up with something that was in relation to what you were looking for. And I’ve seen it, and I’ve seen that happen in my life, you know, we were talking about last time about that whiteboard, a famous whiteboard that I was looking for. My objective was to go to a store, an office store that sells whiteboards. So on my way to the store, I’m walking towards the store, and I see them from my side, from the right side, I see a bucket of roses in front of a store that has nothing to do with whiteboards. And I said, huh, that’s strange. Why would they be selling flowers in the store? I go into the office store, and I look at all the boards, they had like 30 boards, I didn’t like any one. But on my way out, I catch that bucket now with my left eye, and keep walking, I say, wait a second, why is that bucket in front of the store? So it’s kind of like a hunch, you know, like, why is it? So I’m going to find out. So I go to the store, and start looking at all the stuff that they sell, nothing to do with whiteboards. But in the store, I find that whiteboard that I wanted. So it’s those little things that you have to pay attention. It’s something that you are doing that is creating that synchronicity, and it’s showing up in your field of view.
MEL: So in that narrative, how would you explain that then to the listener? They will have questions at this moment, I would think. So Leonardo, are you saying that the roses are there for a reason? Were they there to catch your attention if you’re in flow? But they weren’t intended for anyone else, just intended for you.
LEONARDO: Exactly. Because in my life, I have seen these things suddenly appear. I’ve talked to many people where they would say, I’m very interested in somebody that was born in Brazil. And all of a sudden, in my life, everything is showing up something from Brazil. I go somewhere and somebody starts talking about, you like the food from Brazil. Or I go to my house and my daughter says, oh, have you heard this song from Brazil? So all these things start showing up, and it’s like, how is that happening? Why is that happening? And it’s you projecting that in your life.
It’s very interesting because when you go through the thought process or one of the interpretations that this is a hologram, there is an interpretation that it’s a hologram. There’s many neuroscientists, like Karl Pribram, he also talks about the holographic brain. And he worked with David Bohm that talks about the holographic universe. So when you start putting those two together, and you give it a chance, you know, say, okay, if this is a hologram, let’s force my thought into bending, you know, the interference patterns to create something, to manifest something in my life.
MEL: So for the benefit of the listener who’s not familiar with synchronicity, or the quantum features we’re talking about, I’d like to share that the word, or term, synchronicity, I believe was coined by the great psychoanalyst Carl Jung. And his example of synchronicity was this.
He was working with a patient, a woman who was stuck in her logical, rational mindset. And she was not in touch with her feelings or intuitive being. And she, in a session, began to describe a piece of jewelry, a ring, which had the form of a scarab. And as she’s talking about it, there’s a tapping on the window behind Professor Jung. And he turns around and opens the window, and the beetle, scarab, crawls into his hand, and he says to her, here’s your scarab, which drove her out of her rational, logical mindset and opened her up.
Now in that case, we could say, all right, in our rational mindset, we don’t understand the role of the scarab and how the scarab managed to appear at Jung’s window. It’s beyond our linear comprehension. But we can embrace the mysticism and say, it’s beyond our understanding, but there is no clear cause and effect. So the term synchronicity meant that it’s what Jung called an acausal connection, meaning there’s no cause and effect. And it’s beyond writing it off to coincidence. But he said it has to have a numinous quality. Numinous means it is profoundly personal and of importance to you, the experiencer of the synchronicity.
I’ve had certain synchronicities in my life. I remember decades ago going to Kripalu, which is a yoga institute in the Berkshire Mountains in Massachusetts with a friend of mine who was not inclined to that kind of experience. He woke up one morning and he shared a dream with me. And the dream was about the fact that he was going on a boat ride, and my former wife was on the boat with him, and he had a prize bird. And he didn’t want to lose the bird on the boat ride. It was a ferry. And he took the bird and put it in his eyeglass case, and he wrapped up the eyeglass case. And he asked me to interpret the dream, which I did. And it was around personal matters in his own life. Well, my interpretation further was that the bird symbolized freedom for him because he was contemplating divorce at that time.
But he couldn’t deal with the tension around it. And he decided to wrap it up and put it away so he couldn’t see it for the time being. So he said, ah, interesting. And we walked out of the room down toward breakfast. And breakfast in those years, perhaps it still is, was a large, large cafeteria where meals were eaten in silence. And as we walked into the cafeteria, there’s a large blackboard with these words written on it.
Chirp, chirp, chirp.
Good morning, little birdie.
And I looked at Charles and I said, there’s synchronicity. Now, of course, they didn’t write that on the blackboard for Charles or myself. The Scarab didn’t locate Carl Jung’s office to help him in his session. And I’m going to say, whoever put the roses out there wasn’t operating in a cause and effect way. They put the roses out there. There’s something larger that we don’t see at work. And when you talk about flow, Leonardo, my understanding of flow is that if you get out of your own way and you open your aperture to the widest view possible and quiet your thoughts, then you become at one with the universe. Is that description accurate? Or would you edit that and put it differently?
LEONARDO: I would edit it a little bit more, kind of go like in more in a personal way where we’re used to subdivide ourselves into millions and billions of people. Right. So then you feel that you’re just one of many. So when you’re the central piece in this creation and that you’re just one focus like in this general consciousness. But at this moment, I’m acting as the main character in my own personal movie. Then I can empower myself and say, what do I want to see today? Right. Because everybody else is going to be a secondary character in my life.
MEL: Now that I think is simple yet brilliant at the same time. I think that really nails it. So as you’re saying that, my thought was ego, another construct we made up, but ego speaks to my extreme focus on self and extreme focus on self separates me from the universe, from nature, from humankind, from everything. So what you’re describing then is you are not focused on self. You release that to an extent, allowing you to become attuned to what is around you.
LEONARDO: It’s kind of like you separate yourself from the movie because we’re used to get lost in the movie. The same way that when you go to the theater and you get trapped into the emotions of a adventure movie or anything, and all of a sudden you don’t realize, I want to go see a movie, like say Batman, and I’m trapped into the emotions. When I realize it, I say, go back and release your emotions and look at the movie instead of being trapped in the emotions. So on a day on day basis, we get confused by our thoughts and our emotions. And we believe we are thought and our emotions. And that is the movie and what one should do is just take a step back and be the projector of the movie and not the movie.
MEL: I’d love to show you my appreciation for your subscribing to and rating this podcast by offering you a gift to one of the following, the power of mind, a live talk that I gave, or one of my digital eBooks, creating authentic self-esteem, overcoming anxiety, or raising resilient children. And lastly, cultivating resilient relationships. Once you have subscribed, please send an email to mel at mel schwartz.com and just let me know which gift you’d prefer. Thanks.
MEL: So if I went to watch Batman and didn’t allow myself any emotions, I wouldn’t make a very good spectator in that movie, would I?
LEONARDO: I think it’s subliminally, you know, there’s a lot of emotions and a lot of messages that just try to drag you somewhere. That’s part of the movie effect, right? So they want, they want to take you somewhere.
ME: And interestingly, we go to movies to relieve ourself of our focus on self so we can lose ourself in the drama and story about others. So if we notice, if we learn to see our thought, to see our feeling and see our reaction, we are aware of it. We are not nullifying or denying it, but we see it, then we don’t have to become it. We can transcend thought and feeling by in that nanosecond of seeing it. Is that a technique you employ or do you not have to do that? It feels effortless for you.
LEONARDO: With practice, it becomes effortless. I think I’ve been trying to develop an awareness of the writer, you know, awareness of who’s in the backseat of the observer of this. And I think when one starts to detach himself of labels too, right? Because you go to sleep, you fall out of consciousness. And then when you wake up, the first thing you see is they scan your room and everything is like my book, my shoes, my laptop, my, my, my, my. And you start to identify and like kind of like solidify him. Like if you fall asleep and you had a toothache, when you wake up, if the pain didn’t wake you up, sometimes you wake up and you’re like, where’s the ache? There’s the ache, right? You start, oh, there it is. I’ve had cases where I would be like a Saturday and I woke up and I had a terrible back pain, like a kidney. And I, oh my, it hurts so bad. It hurts so bad. Throughout the day, I’m constantly thinking about that pain and I’m feeling that pain. And then I go to sleep or I sneeze or cough and it really hurts. I have to go Monday to the doctor to see somebody. And I sleep on that side and it really hurts, you know, like, oh, I can’t even bear putting on that. And then the next morning I stop myself and I say, what are you doing? You’re so focused on the pain, you know? And I said, from now on, I’m not going to think about the pain. I’m just going to eat that pain, absorb that pain, and at the same time, I’m going to say I have nothing. I’m not going to let my imagination saying, oh, what possibly could I have? It must be a kidney stone. It must be this. It might be that, you know? And just really believe that I have nothing, okay? And the process of that, the pain goes away.
MEL: I’ve had an experience where at a very important time in my life, I was about to start graduate school but at middle age and I started to develop this debilitating pain in my stomach and there didn’t appear to be any medical explanation. And I was in therapy at the time. My therapist proposed to me that the pain had to do with my relationship with the pain because my story was if this doesn’t go away in four days, I can’t start the semester. I’m 42 years old. I can’t wait another year. And he said to me, invite the pain in. Embrace it. Welcome it. Make it your ally. Don’t fight it. And I laid in bed and I did that visualization where I’m not making war. I’m not fearful. You’re here for a reason. Come on in. And that was it. It was gone. Now I’m not suggesting that there aren’t physical realities to pain in many cases but we have a relationship with it.
LEONARDO: David Hawkins has a book about that. I don’t remember the title but chapter 10 is about pain and he talks about that. He talked about the whole process of accepting it and welcoming it and in that process, like the pain goes away, right?
ME: Yes. So we know, we understand that our relationship with fear is the issue. It’s not the fear. It’s the relationship with it. Our relationship with discomfort when I’m trying to assist people in their change process, whatever it’s about, ultimately, why do they not take the necessary actions? Because it’s not in their familiar zone. It makes them uncomfortable. And when I ask them, well, why didn’t you try what we were discussing? They’ll say, it made me feel uncomfortable. My response, which might be quizzical, would be embrace the discomfort. Physically people work out, they do yoga, we embrace intense discomfort if there’s physical gain. We need to do the same emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, right?
Leonardo used the term consciousness before. I believe in what I call shared meaning, which is that we use words and concepts and they mean different things to all of us. Consciousness has been on my mind a lot recently. I’m a member of the International Society for Consciousness Studies, which is a scientific confederation of scholars who study consciousness. Consciousness in that case is not confined or perhaps doesn’t even originate in our physical being. What does the word consciousness mean to you?
LEONARDO: I think it’s that infinite realm to which we are all connected in a magnificent way, but we don’t have the understanding of it, right? And I think it was David Bohm that described it as a big river of consciousness and where in the river you could find several whirlpools and these whirlpools were the individual people. And you could not separate the river from the whirlpool. You couldn’t pick it up, you know? And at the same time, the river was the whirlpool and the whirlpool was the river. So I think consciousness would be kind of like this huge realm where us as individuals can tap into if you’re in a state of flow, in a state of acceptance that there’s something bigger than you. Like musicians, when they say like, oh, I didn’t write this song, it just came to me. I just came to flow. Or some writers say, no, I just sat down and just get downloaded into me, you know? But people sometimes don’t understand that, but when you get into that flow and all of a sudden you get bombarded by, who knows, the wisdom from the past and then the future, you know, there’s many texts that talk about time is an illusion or even space is an illusion. So I think consciousness is that realm to where we can tap if we’re in flow and we can like really benefit from it, no?
MEL: So you use that term, illusion, brings up the concept of Maya or illusion. Do you believe consciousness requires human intelligence and or do you believe consciousness is actually manifest to the universe itself?
LEONARDO: I think a human is here to experience this humanity, you know, this world of perceiving. We experience consciousness as a human just for the fact of to be able to perceive, you know, to perceive this experience.
MEL: In other words, we have eyes to see.
MEL: So I’ve grappled with this a lot and I’ve come to the current belief that my individual consciousness and universal consciousness are different aspects of the same whole. Sometimes people will ask me a religious or a spiritual question, they’ll ask me, do I believe in God? My answer is I don’t believe in God as a deity or in a Judeo-Christian God. My belief is that the universe itself is the creative intelligence. So the creative intelligence that created the universe and is all that is, to me, is the equivalent of the God substance. And since the universe is one inseparable whole, that deity, that God-like quality is you, me, monkeys, planet Mars, dark energy. In other words, instead of revering a deity, a G-O-D, if we revered all that is, ourselves, one another and everything, that would be heaven on earth, wouldn’t it?
LEONARDO: For example, you just mentioned that we have eyes to see, right? But there are so many cases of out-of-body experience where a person sees themselves on the operating table or sees themselves somewhere else or being able to not just see through the eyes but have a 360 vision of the world. So how do you explain that? That doesn’t require a body, it doesn’t require, in a way, you know, the consciousness doesn’t require the body, right? Because he’s floating outside.
MEL: It doesn’t, and of course, not dissimilar. What we erroneously call near-death experience, I would say isn’t near-death experience. It suggests that we need to rethink what we mean by death. So again, for listeners who may not be familiar, throughout all parts of the world, arguably millions of people of all different beliefs have died. And our medical definition of death is flatline brain activity and the heart has stopped beating for a certain length of time. Now in these cases, perhaps millions, these people miraculously came back to life. Now science, medicine tells us that they should be in a vegetative state, but they’re not. But moreover, they report exactly what happened in those minutes when they were presumably dead. They repeat the conversations and everything else. So we then see that their consciousness, their sentience, their awareness did not require a heart to beat or a brain to have activity. So the irony is we call that near-death experience. No, firstly, good science and good medicine, with one exception, with one anomaly, needs to go back to the drawing board and say, wait, we need to rethink this.
But we don’t. That’s why we write things off and marginalize them by saying it’s just a placebo effect. Wait a minute, just a placebo effect? It should be, holy shit. So my mind, when tricked into thinking this is a drug, can heal myself sometimes. Wow, back to the drawing board. So we marginalize phenomenon that do not fit into the construct, as you were speaking before, of our primary operating belief system. And that’s what traps us and confines us. And your excitement, like mine, is breaking through that entrapment and saying, what if? And accessing possibility.
LEONARDO: And one other case, one of the cases that fascinate me is also like the people who have or suffer of multiple personalities. Have you seen those?
LEONARD: Yes, of course. Somebody had like five personalities, you know, and one of them is diabetic and can’t drink orange juice because he gets into an attack. But the other four personalities are not diabetic. Or another case I was reading where had like six personalities and one was a drug addict. And the drug addict had scars in his arm. And when he changed to the personality, those scars went away. And that’s a physiological change. How can you explain that? How can you explain that? And the last case I was reading was a guy that came to his doctor. He just got stung by a wasp and he had all the face puffed up and he was in pain. And the doctor who knew about him, he knew that one of his personalities didn’t suffer pain. So he put him in a trance and called the other personality out. And when this other personality came out, had no pain and all the puffiness went away. So how can you explain that instant cure of something, you know, it has to be something deep down in your subconscious that says, I don’t have this.
MEL: Well, I think that on one level, we need to go back and consider that we are energy. So I’ve always been fascinated by Einstein’s E equals MC squared. And I’m saying this as a non-scientist. I’ve had no scientific training, but the takeaway is energy and matter cannot be destroyed. They simply convert into one another. So I’ve looked at what we call life and death. I’ve looked at it through David Bohm’s implicit explicit order as a model. And I’ve looked at it through E equals MC squared. And so what we call death really is if being alive is the M, it’s the matter. And what we call death is the dissolution of matter and the conversion into energy. So coming back to your question, if we are energy existing temporarily in physical form, but we are energy, well, that energy would have the possibility to see with our lives, that energy would have the possibility to be A, B or C. And my intuitive response to that question that you’re posing Leonardo is it’s energy manifesting in different ways. It’s an anomaly. We’re not used to it. We think it’s science fiction, but we’re going through life with blinders on. I see our infinite possibilities become distinct and limited by conforming to limiting belief systems. And that’s what traps us.
Well, we’ve run to the end of our allotted time for this meeting. I would love to have you back and discuss and explore many other things. We’re going to have all of your contact information in the notes to this podcast, which will be out shortly. But if you’d like to, would you leave for the listener how they can easily access your work and contact you if they wish. And please tell them about your Instagram account. You have something like 5 billion followers, right?
LEONADO: Yeah, it’s a fascinating story because I think last year I had like 5000 followers on my Instagram and then in October, I really want to like give myself out and really talk about this. So my, my logo is like a heart and a atom around it. So I tattooed it on my chest and the day I tattooed that logo on my chest, my account went from 30,000 to 300,000 in 7 days.
LEONARDO: Pure energy, you know?
MEL: There you go. Yeah, that wraps up and explains it all. It’s an acausal connection. There is no cause and effect that you entered into a oneness with the energy. Would you like to share your contact information or Instagram account?
LEONARDO: Yeah, my Instagram account is the easiest way to contact me is Leonardo underscore and fisicacuantica. That would be quantum physics, but in Spanish. So Leonardo underscore fisicacuantica.
MEL: Excellent. Well, great having you on. Hope to continue our conversation.
MEL: I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Possibility Podcast. I welcome your feedback on this and any episode. Please send me an email at Mel at Mel Schwartz dot com or leave a comment in the show notes for this episode at Mel Schwartz dot com. If you like what you’re hearing, please take a moment to rate and review the show at Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Your reviews really help boost the visibility for the show and it’s a great way for you to show your support. Finally, please make sure to subscribe to The Possibility Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And that way you’ll never miss an episode. Thanks again and please remember to always welcome uncertainty into your life and embrace new possibilities.